Michael Voris is a religious educator, politlcal pundit, and CEO of the website Church Militant. Over the years, Voris has attracted much controversy for his hard-hitting and direct calling out of people in the church for evil and corrupt behavior, and yet stands firm in his Catholic faith.
Long story short: The opportunity came up for me to interview Michael Voris, so I decided to get his take on the most common questions sent into Sunday School: “Why Catholicism and not Protestantism?” “What’s up with religious moral teaching?” Do all ‘good people’ get into heaven?” And more.
This is going to be a hair raising episode for many! It was for me.
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Show Notes and Resources
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Michael Voris brought up some good points about the problem of not preaching the hard truths of Catholicism. No one likes to hear about God’s views on sin, but Jesus Christ said people prefer the darkness to the light. It’s not surprising that people are “turned off” by people who preach against sin. It’s not a popular thing to do, but it’s mandated by the Bible. There’s no getting around it.
Thanks for bringing in people who can stir up good conversations, Pat. Just listening to thoughts of Michael Voris I can see how there’s much talk about his stand on stuff, I admire his firmness and foundation for what he stands for. A very refreshing perspective for me who is in the journey of learning more about topics like these. These conversations are difficult to discuss because either it’s difficult to talk about or people don’t want to take the time to do this. But it needs to be done. I appreciate this so much Pat, I needed to hear this!
This is the podcast I’ve been waiting for Pat, an explanation of why people who become Christians (or return to the fold) choose Catholicism over Protestantism. There are notable differences and while I still endorse Protestantism, I enjoyed listening to the discussion. I do have some points I wanted to bring up by Mr. Voris. First, you don’t get to Heaven by merit. I don’t know if he misspoke, but that was the impression I got listening to him. Second, I thought using the verbiage “blah, blah, blah” when discussing sexual misconduct allegations wasn’t the best choice of words for a serious matter. It’s undoubtedly the biggest issue facing the Catholic Church and he didn’t help things any. Finally, I don’t think any church has the last say on salvation. You can be in the Catholic Church and be saved or be in a Lutheran church and be saved (or miss salvation). You can even be someone who doesn’t go to church and be saved (but you’re missing out on the blessings of fellowship and worship). Fascinating discussion and I bring these points up in love, not to be critical.
This is one I know many have been waiting for, so I’m glad you enjoyed listening in, Michael. Your points are important and well-presented, so I’d like to discuss them.
Regarding salvation, I think this is just a misunderstanding. The Church affirms that no person by them-self can merit the grace required for salvation. Where people get mixed up is on the part of human cooperation, or the role man plays in accepting and responding (appropriately) to the merits of Christ.
The best place to go for clarity on Church teaching is always the Catechism. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
That whole article is worth a read, but here are a few passages I think you might find clarifying:
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1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
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Perhaps this could all be condensed to say that the Catholic doctrine of “good Works” is simply what falls out of our free response and cooperation to the gift of God’s Saving Grace, not what merits that grace. Either way, I’m glad you brought this up, since it’s a common point of misunderstanding. I was under the opposite impression myself when still a Protestant. I do believe Michael was affirming this, even if it may not have come out that way.
To the part about sexual misconduct, I’ll just attest that very few people are doing as much to clean up the Church as Michael. What’s attracted more controversy to Michael and his apolostate than anything is his consistent calling out of the hypocrisy, scandal, and sexual misconduct going on in the church by unfaithful clergymen. I don’t think his “blah, blah, blah” was attempting to gloss over any of that, but was more directed at the general nature of “hook up culture” (as he called it) within society at large, etc. I could be wrong (I need to re-listen to this episode myself), but I’d have a look at his YouTube channel. The majority of his videos are directed at not only highlighting, but attempting to correct, deviant and unfaithful behavior among clergyman.
The last point about Salvation, which I’m currently writing a post on: The Church holds quite firmly that there is no salvation WITHOUT the Catholic Church (that is, the Body of Christ). That said, and this is to your point, there CAN be salvation OUTSIDE the Church. The Catholic tradition has long affirmed that people of goodwill, who never heard of Christ or His Church, etc, through no fault of their own, and so long as they respond to the Grace God has given them, can, in fact, be saved. All this naturally brings up a host of questions regarding “goodwill”, and what exactly that means. It’s a nuanced position and often an uncomfortable one. But your general suggestion is what the Catholic Church teaches, only the Church would also affirm that people who are saved outside of the Church of not saved *because* they’re Protestant, or Buddhist, or whatever, but in spite of it, and that every person has a moral obligation, to the extent they’re able, not just follow their conscience, but form it. To seek truth wherever it may lead, and however uncomfortable, for their love of God.
What makes this topic contentious for so many people is the fact that it is, well, contentious! Since if what the Catholic Church says is true, and the Catholic Church really is the one, visible, hierarchical, sacramental Church founded by Christ–and Christ really and truly is present in the Eucharist–then to be outside the Catholic Church just is to be separated from the Body of Christ. That is something that shook me very deeply as a Protestant, in the same way the very question of Jesus shook me before I was a Christian. Even though I believed neither at the time, I saw their claims as significant enough to merit a serious and open-minded study of each. If Jesus really IS God, then I had better try to figure that one out, I told myself – and so I became a Christian. But then, another question began haunting me, particularly as I was attending Lutheran and Evangelical churches: If Christ really DID found he Catholic Church, than I had better look into that, as well, even with respect to what was my then-very-ill-impression of Catholicism. That’s what led me into a study of the earliest Christians… which, speaking of, somebody recently passed this along to me through email:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
It’s a convenient collection of many writings of the Church Fathers, and worth reading. For me, it was upon seeing how the earliest Christians practiced the mass as a form of sacrifice, believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, confessed their sins to a priest, established church discipline and (when necessary) excommunication (they were especially condemning of schism!), were obedient to the hierarchy and Pope, etc, is what eventually “did me in” as a Protestant. I couldn’t get around the fact that it was all Catholic.
Final note: These are important conversations–in fact, if there is any truth to be found here at all, then it seems these are the most important conversations a person could possibly have–and so it makes me smile to see they’re capable of being had civilly. My primary concern with religious (not to mention political) conversation these days is that one of either two ends is often adopted: The first is indifference or “mere toleration”(which ignores the value of pursuing truth and therefore avoids making progress), the second, is shouting/violence. Thanks for setting the tone on this Michael. I enjoy your contributions, and get a lot out of them.
Hi Pat,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my comments. As a former Catholic, I am still interested in the teachings of the Catholic Church. As you know, I’m a Christian (Protestant), but I’m trying to get a true Catholic’s opinion on why they are Catholic (as opposed to Protestant). I am going to check out those links and again, thanks for responding to my comments. I enjoy coming here because I know I can have an intelligent and spirited conversation.